Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3 [Sneasler Banned]

Mind that hazard removal is of no fault to Good as Gold, that only stops Defog and Defog alone. Giving it to a Ghost type is the problem. Making it a Steel type while also making a poison type Rapid Spin is a slap in the face.

Maybe they make a Grass or Water type rapid spin? Something.
True, didn't really think of that. The main reason why I bring up Good as Gold as a problem is that in the past before we had mortal spin, ghost types were always able to spin block. Defog was seen as so revolutionary because despite removing your own hazards, it couldn't be blocked. Though yes, the Ghost typing does exacerabate the problem (I don't think mortal spin is that useful as it's on a pokemon who's main thing is getting up hazards early in the game, ergo it doesn't live that long. It is still a nice option to have that you need to consider.), it means that the most 'reliable' (although it hasn't always been, see Gen 6 where spikes stacking teams were still common due to the lati twins/zapdos being the only consistent defoggers) hazard removing option is null and void.
 
Ha, i forgot Mortal Spin wasn't in previous gens.

If they have the balls to make Tidy Up, they can add more hazard removers.
 
Ha, i forgot Mortal Spin wasn't in previous gens.

If they have the balls to make Tidy Up, they can add more hazard removers.
I both totally agree and totally disagree with your last statement.
They had the balls to give tidy up to Furret, because they apparently didn't realise that it would be even more broken than before. (It also means that Maushold had it's signature move for not even a full generation, along with Mabostiff's Guard dog abilty and Brambleghast's wind rider abilty given to Okidogi and Shiftry respectfully).
On the other hand, they really seem to hate hazard removal options and severly restrict its options. Cinderace technically has two signature moves, Pyro Ball and Court Change. Pyro Ball makes sense, the other Galar starters each have a signature attack, but court change should realistically have more distribution. It's a great form of hazard control but apparently Cinderace can have two signature moves. I guess their scared of upsetting furries.
 
Ha, i forgot Mortal Spin wasn't in previous gens.

If they have the balls to make Tidy Up, they can add more hazard removers.
This is mainly why I wanna wait for DLC2 to release, since DLC1 gave us Knock off and Scald back as TMs (Though a more limited distribution for scald) so it is pretty likely that we are getting defog as tm in DLC2.
However that is unconfirmed so I don't wanna jump the bullet here, but I think waiting on DLC2 before making decisions on hazards and by extension Ghouldengo is the right way to go about it, since DLC2 is releasing winter this year which is only three months away.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
This is mainly why I wanna wait for DLC2 to release, since DLC1 gave us Knock off and Scald back as TMs (Though a more limited distribution for scald) so it is pretty likely that we are getting defog as tm in DLC2.
However that is unconfirmed so I don't wanna jump the bullet here, but I think waiting on DLC2 before making decisions on hazards and by extension Ghouldengo is the right way to go about it, since DLC2 is releasing winter this year which is only three months away.
I wouldn't hold my breath on three months away. They didn't specify when in winter and for all we know, it could be early next year they release it
 
I wouldn't hold my breath on three months away. They didn't specify when in winter and for all we know, it could be early next year they release it
There is 0 chance of that happening. Gamefreak wants to profit from holiday shopping, so there's no way this comes out after Christmas.
 
is it, though? one of its most solid offensive answers happens to be waterpon, arguably the most viable teambuilding choice in the tier besides gliscor itself. she absorbs knock off and resists eq, easily 2hkos fully invested gliscor with ivy cudgel, and breaks tera water sets with her grass stab. gliscor's only hope in the matchup (outside of off-meta stuff like poison jab) is to be the sd facade set and set up before waterpon comes in and outplay her with your tera once she's out. or just run tera dragon, but then you can't dodge ice moves as handily

there's plenty of other viable stuff that forces gliscor to either tera or switch too—manaphy, greninja, walking wake, rain teams in general, and of course alolan ninetales, who hits both of gliscor's most common teras (water and dragon) supereffectively with freeze-dry, so you can't even play the tera mindgame against that one. and that's just the supereffective stuff
Midaphy's main value in the tier is being one of the most reliable Gliscor answers and you people want to ban it:psycry:

"rain teams" are not a counter, that's a matchup, the solution to broken Gliscor is not "just run a rain team"
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
This is mainly why I wanna wait for DLC2 to release, since DLC1 gave us Knock off and Scald back as TMs (Though a more limited distribution for scald) so it is pretty likely that we are getting defog as tm in DLC2.
However that is unconfirmed so I don't wanna jump the bullet here, but I think waiting on DLC2 before making decisions on hazards and by extension Ghouldengo is the right way to go about it, since DLC2 is releasing winter this year which is only three months away.
DaddyBuzzwole bruh take a look carefully at what the guy said was coming out in winter 2023

image_2023-09-30_134107481.png
 
DaddyBuzzwole bruh take a look carefully at what the guy said was coming out in winter 2023

View attachment 556430
ok, so my initial assessment was wrong. it was not obvious what part of "winter 2023" you didn't understand because it turns out the whole concept is over your head. let me explain: when companies say "winter 2023", they don't mean "the last week of the year at the absolute earliest". what they mean is "anywhere from mid-november to right before christmas". you know, just like how they said teal mask would release in fall 2023 and it released before the actual season of fall. apologies for making you read all these words, i can tell it must be difficult for you
Midaphy's main value in the tier is being one of the most reliable Gliscor answers and you people want to ban it:psycry:

"rain teams" are not a counter, that's a matchup, the solution to broken Gliscor is not "just run a rain team"
buddy, raven's already filled the "completely idiotic statement" quota for this page, you can stop trying
 
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As our generation's greatest antisemite once said: "I wanna go to the moon / Don't leave so soon / How could I get through?"

I'd like to announce I'll be once again trying and failing to get reqs to help in the campaign for BM Luna to beat the ban allegations

In all seriousness, does any ghost type get Mold Breaker? And does Mold Breaker stop Mind's Eye? geniunely asking
Mold breaker only affects the user’s moves. What you’re looking for instead is Weezing-G’s Neutralising Gas or a way to stick Wandering Spirit/Mummy onto Ursaluna-BM.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
ok, so my initial assessment was wrong. it was not obvious what part of "winter 2023" you didn't understand because it turns out the whole concept is over your head. let me explain: when companies say "winter 2023", they don't mean "the last week of the year at the absolute earliest". what they mean is "anywhere from mid-november to right before christmas". you know, just like how they said teal mask would release in fall 2023 and it released before the actual season of fall. apologies for making you read all these words, i can tell it must be difficult for you
Or perhaps what I meant completely flew over your head because right now, there is no official announcement of when the release date would be, all we still got is a vague winter 2023. Let me phrase it in simple words. The Indigo Disk may or may not have a similar time table as the Teal Mask, meaning it is in the realm of possibilities that the ID might not drop ten days before the start of the season mentioned it would release. Until we get an official announcement, we'll never know for sure so I'm not gonna presume we'll get it before the year ends despite the release date of the TM. Is that clear enough or is is still too complicated?
 
All this talk about hazards make me wonder why Rapid Spin is even an attack in the first place. It had 20 power for almost 20 years and even with the power buff 50 is basically nothing unless its from something with technician and STAB. I can only assume it was specifically because they wanted ghost types to block the hazard removal effect, but with how much easier it is to set them up on top of it giving +1 SPE it should just be a status move. For all intents and purposes it has always been and it dealing damage is more of detriment than a help.
 
All this talk about hazards make me wonder why Rapid Spin is even an attack in the first place. It had 20 power for almost 20 years and even with the power buff 50 is basically nothing unless its from something with technician and STAB. I can only assume it was specifically because they wanted ghost types to block the hazard removal effect, but with how much easier it is to set them up on top of it giving +1 SPE it should just be a status move. For all intents and purposes it has always been and it dealing damage is more of detriment than a help.
If it was Status, Taunt would block it, like Defog. Its a good thing it being offensive Move, especially with the Speed boost.
 
Being blocked by a type instead of Taunt is good for Rapid Spin to diversify counterplay to Hazard Removal: One is more easily accessible at the cost of removing your hazards, while the other is harder to stop with ONLY benefit, but requires prediction to get out effectively. To beat the dead horse again, this is my issue with Gholdengo: Stopping Defog by existing on the field undercuts the dynamic of the two Hazard moves, since it's mostly used by defensive Pokemon that wouldn't be able to break through it compared to Rapid Spin's more offense oriented user pool
 
Or perhaps what I meant completely flew over your head because right now, there is no official announcement of when the release date would be, all we still got is a vague winter 2023. Let me phrase it in simple words. The Indigo Disk may or may not have a similar time table as the Teal Mask, meaning it is in the realm of possibilities that the ID might not drop ten days before the start of the season mentioned it would release. Until we get an official announcement, we'll never know for sure so I'm not gonna presume we'll get it before the year ends despite the release date of the TM. Is that clear enough or is is still too complicated?
i'll bet you $34.99 that the dlc comes out before christmas
 
Being blocked by a type instead of Taunt is good for Rapid Spin to diversify counterplay to Hazard Removal: One is more easily accessible at the cost of removing your hazards, while the other is harder to stop with ONLY benefit, but requires prediction to get out effectively. To beat the dead horse again, this is my issue with Gholdengo: Stopping Defog by existing on the field undercuts the dynamic of the two Hazard moves, since it's mostly used by defensive Pokemon that wouldn't be able to break through it compared to Rapid Spin's more offense oriented user pool
Mortal Spin landing the same gen really just highlights this issue, too. The same games they added more setters and cut way back on hazard removal we got something that was supposed to beat Ghosts spinblocking, but then they made the new premier Ghost of the gen block that, too, and gave it an Ability that stops all but one form of hazard removal, which is exclusive to an unmon.
 
Playing the ursaluna suspect test really made me think about how broken terastalization really was. Throughout the whole suspect, I was barely enjoying playing through it, and I was not really enjoying it at all in the first 20-25 games, if at all. I’ve always been a pro tera user. It enables more metagame development, and more fun when it comes to the team building as you can have a lot more variety. But all of that really changed when I started playing the suspect test. Throughout the most of the ladder, I used a psyspam team that I had some success with on the high ladder before the suspect. It was going well, and I managed to get a good 27-0 run before losing to some bad matchups and misplays. But i wasn’t enjoying playing the suspect. On my other suspect accounts, I had just been blown away, and was considering to take a break and get the reqs at the end of the suspect, or to not even get reqs at all. This meta just felt really heinous to me. And it all had to do with terastallization.

My main problem with terastallization is that it breaks a core mechanic. Typings and type matchups have existed ever since generation 1. Grass beats water, water beats fire and fire beats grass. However, terastallization changes this. Now, water can beat any type it wants. If it wants to beat a dragon, it can terastallization into a fairy type and click tera blast. One of the big reasons that ursaluna, the suspected pokemon is as broken as it is, is due to tera. You can no longer toxic it. You can no longer use a grass type to beat a ground type and you can no longer rely on counterplay, which previously had always existed in past gens.

There is no reason for a polteageist to be able to beat kingambit. There is no reason for a sneasler to be immune to earthquake. Tera just creates a heinous type of mind games. If you close combat the opposing kingambit when it teras, you lose. If you ice spinner and they tera, you win. This was more fine in the pre home meta. There weren’t any big threats barring stuff like kingambit, and you could still play around those big tera abusers. Now however, we have a whole new meta. A lot of the new broken pokemon would not function the same with tera. You can maybe claim a kill or two with bloodmoon until meowscarada comes out to revenge kill it, unlike the meta with terastallization. Now you can simply tera poison on the meowscarada, and now it’s helpless.

A big reason that so many pokemon uses encore is that there isn’t a lot of other counterplay. How are you planning on beating a shell smashed polteageist with tera? You basically can’t if you don’t have something such as a ting lu. That’s why encore is such a big move. You can now encore the polteageist into shell smash and then ko it before it’s unable to do something else. You can’t rely on a kingambit to beat it. If it was generation 8, a polteageist would never stay in on a bisharp, but now it’s a favorable matchup for polteageist in gen 9. Yes, you can also terastallize yourself and try to beat it. Maybe you tera fairy on the opposing tera blast and manage to win the trade, But that isn’t a sign of a good metagame. It’s a case of “broken beats broken” with the broken thing being the same.

I’d rather play a meta where I know that my meowscarada can safely ko the opposing ursaluna without having to scout for a tera just to lose another pokemon to see that it hasn’t terastallized. A pokemon already has a ton of variety. It can run any item it wants, any move it gets, a ton of different EV spreads and more. Giving a pokemon more flexibility just isn’t needed.

Historically, a lot of pokemon has been banned due to terastallization. There have been outliers in the beginning of the meta, such as chi yu or palafin which just used tera to boost them even stronger, but looking at pokemon such as volcarona, annihilape, or regieleki, the problem becomes quite clear.

The metagame has been aging for over a year soon, and the most recent tera suspect we’ve had was early december last year. With every new addition to the metagame, there comes more broken threats, and with dlc 2, that pattern is likely to repeat itself.

The meta has evolved enough since the last suspect test, and terastallization definitely deserves to be looked at, or suspected tested in the near future.
 
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